I’ve visited the Society of Illustrators many times over the years, where I’ve been lucky enough to see exhibitions dedicated to the artwork of Harvey Kurtzman, Ralph Steadman, and Dick Dillon, as well as many others (and you should definitely pop by sometime if you can), but until my most recent trip to New York, I never had a good enough reason to dine at their third floor restaurant—The 128 Bar & Bistro. But no other location seemed quite so perfect a match for my lunch with Irene Gallo.

Gallo has worked as an art director at Tor Books for more than two decades, where she currently holds the title of Creative Director. She’s also the Associate Publisher of Tor.com, and is ultimately the one responsible for the look of the publishing company’s book covers, as well as its online output. She’s been nominated for a Chesley Award for her art direction an astounding 19 times, the first back in 1999, and has won 13, as early as 2001, and as recently as 2017.

We discussed what it was like the first time she realized she wasn’t the only one in the world who cared so strongly about art, how she felt the day she discovered Harlan Ellison as well as the title of his that made her go “whoa,” why seeing book covers as thumbnails started long before the trend of Internet bookselling, how a manuscript moves from cover concept through to final cover, whether the cliche that an author is the worst possible designer of their own book cover is true, how self-published authors who create their own books can get the best possible covers, and much more.

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And here’s what we ate that afternoon in New York—

Irene’s Cheese and Onion Omelette

My Tomato Basil Fusilli

My Chocolate Chip Cookie

And as for Irene’s ice cream, it can be seen in her hands in the photo above.

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I hope you’ll return in two weeks for a special flashback episode in which I head back to 1994 for cannolis with Charles Sheffield and Arlan Andrews as we discuss the many ways the world might end.

Thanks for listening!